培训评估是培训经理角色中众所周知的困难方面。然而,衡量培训的影响对于证明学习与发展(L&D)对企业(以及你自己)的影响至关重要。

在这期由GP Strategies赞助的《学习的商业》特别节目中,GP Strategies的绩效和学习分析总监Bonnie Beresford回答了我们最迫切的关于培训衡量的问题。

现在听:

额外的资源:

本集的成绩单如下:

演讲者1:

欢迎来到学习的业务,学习领导竞争培训行业。188金宝搏链接

米歇尔Eggleston Schwartz:

嗨。欢迎回到《学习的商业》。我是米歇尔·埃格尔斯顿·施瓦茨,《培训产业》的编辑总监,和我的搭档莎拉·加洛在一起,她是资深编辑。188金宝搏链接

莎拉·盖洛:

受欢迎的。本期《学习的商业》由GP Strategies为我们呈现。

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米歇尔Eggleston Schwartz:

我们生活在一个由数据驱动的世界,但一提到“测量”这个词,许多培训专业人员就会立刻感到紧张。但是,为什么衡量训练的影响如此困难呢?我们如何在早期确定关键的学习指标?最重要的是,学习型领导者如何一劳永逸地掌握培训测量,以帮助自己定位,并将整个培训职能定位为核心业务资产?为了找到这些问题的答案,我们采访了GP Strategies的表现和学习分析总监Bonnie Beresford。邦妮,谢谢你今天接受我们的采访。

邦妮贝雷斯福德:

我很荣幸能就我最喜欢的话题之一与您和您的客人交谈。谢谢你!

莎拉·盖洛:

太好了,欢迎你,邦妮。首先,我想如果你能给我们的听众定义一下训练测量会很有帮助。当我们说衡量培训的影响时,我们真正的意思是什么?

邦妮贝雷斯福德:

让我们从第一个问题开始,你如何定义培训测量?因为人们想到测量的时候会想到不同的东西,我喜欢把它定位为弄清目的是什么,我们为什么要测量?我们测量是为了提供信息,我们测量是为了回答问题,无论是早上称体重还是追踪我们的Fitbit,看看我们走了多少步,我们使用测量来回答问题,提供信息,并真正为决策提供见解。这些决定肯定有各种各样的形式和大小,无论是再次称重,我是否应该吃冰淇淋?学习如何衡量我们可能关注的效率、效果和影响。所以最好的测量方法是....当人们开始思考测量的时候,我希望他们开始思考他们试图得到测量答案的问题。如果你只是简单地说,“我想要测量”,但你不知道为什么或为什么,那就很难想出好的测量方法,因为你不知道你要寻找的是什么。它可以是有多少员工接受了我们的培训,这是一种衡量。还是客户服务代表比销售人员更看重培训,为什么? Or how well are we utilizing our virtual classroom licenses? Or all the way to did my million dollar leadership program have a positive return on investment? Without a sense of what you’re looking for, you could just be sitting on a pile of data. You all might have heard of stories of people that have wonderful dashboards with all kinds of reports, but they’re not answering anybody’s questions. So really, again, you need to just start with the question, what are you trying to answer and how can I use data to get there? I’m going to come now to your second point, that impact of training. For many, and especially more recently, measuring impact is kind of the holy grail, is my program moving the needle? And if so, by how much? How much is it impacting the business? When we talk about measuring impact, in my perspective, it should always be about business impact, using real business data. Getting outside the learning data to the business data to demonstrate business impact [is key].

莎拉·盖洛:

这是一个伟大的观点。我想回到你说过的,邦妮,关于问正确问题的重要性....对于那些不知道应该问哪些问题的领导者,你有什么建议?

邦妮贝雷斯福德:

您可以简单地开始并与您的数据一起开始。你知道你有多少学生?您是否通过工作角色描述了您的受众?有多少工作角色?他们在地理位置的地方?你知道你的课程目录是什么样的,以及你的课程的年龄吗?有多少人正在采取新课程与旧课程?它可能是,我有太多的培训师,还是没有足够的培训师?我的设施和培训师利用是什么?或者它可以进入商业的东西,这次培训是否更适合新雇用而不是退伍军人员工? It’s all over the board in terms of the types of questions and it really just takes a little stepping back and saying, “Gosh, what do I wish I knew?” It could be into the business impact realm, but it could very well be just into the operational metrics as well.

莎拉·盖洛:

太好了,谢谢你给我们解释。我认为首先,虽然我们知道许多学习型领导者可能想要开始衡量培训的影响,就像米歇尔之前提到的,但这并不容易。你认为为什么我们很多人很难得到正确的培训衡量标准?

邦妮贝雷斯福德:

答案是双重的。一是我们倾向于在培训的围墙内进行测量使用我们拥有的,我们喜欢的,我们可以控制的数据,并尝试在那里进行测量。其次,这也是我们对成功的定义。我们用自己的方式来定义成功吗?或者举个例子,在一个学习型组织中,如果我们完成了试点并且有一定数量的参与者完成了项目,我们可以说我们是成功的。或者,我们将15个现场课程转化为一个虚拟授课平台。如果这是我们衡量成功的方式,那是在我们自己的世界里,而不是在商业世界里。我们需要思考在商业世界中成功是什么样的才能产生商业影响。我们是否提高了新员工的留存率?我们减少了工伤吗? Did we increase production run rates? You see the difference in the measures here, we’re looking one side is learning operational kinds of measures, versus business outcome and output measures. So it’s how we define success, and in the second breath, it’s the data that we use. If we are confined to our own data, because it’s easy to get and we understand it, we’re only going to get that far. We have to get comfortable talking about business data and showing the linkages between how our programs affect that 90 day retention, affect safety ratings, affect production rates. It’s when we step outside the learning area and start getting integrated with the business in terms of how they define success and what their measures are, then we’re going to start having more success, but it’s uncomfortable for a lot of learning people to jump over that wall into the business world.

米歇尔Eggleston Schwartz:

这些都是很好的观点,邦妮,我真的很喜欢你所说的从商业的角度看待成功。从某种意义上说,人力资源和发展专业人士真的需要挑战自己,走出他们的舒适区,真正让自己沉浸在业务指标中,以及从利益相关者和高层领导人的角度看,成功是什么样子的。这非常困难,但也非常重要。

邦妮贝雷斯福德:

与此呼应的是,Learning Technologies Group刚刚做了一个研究项目,他们发现96%的学习型领导者想要衡量影响力,所以我们都在讨论这个问题。布兰登·霍尔做了一些后续研究,发现只有16%的学习型组织觉得他们有能力衡量影响,同样的研究问受访者为什么?如果你想,为什么不呢?最主要的原因是优先级的竞争,我明白。其他事情也会出现,衡量需要时间和精力,但第二个原因是他们不知道如何去做。他们不知道测量什么,也不知道如何测量。想到这一点,我不禁挠头,因为我们中的许多人都是伴随着柯克帕特里克模型长大的。我们有四个层次的评估,从满意度,通过学习收获,行为,和业务影响,但我们还没有。我的意思是,那个模型,柯克帕特里克模型首次发表于1959年,那是什么?62年前的事了,我们还没掌握。 What’s missing is a mental model around how to get to that impact. How do we make that alignment? We’re missing that alignment between our learning and business impact, or could I say learning and business outcomes, because we aren’t conversant in those business metrics. What we need to do is partner with our business stakeholders to identify what those outcomes should be. It shouldn’t be up to the learning organization to define what the business outcomes are. The business is coming to us saying, “I have a need, I’ve got a safety problem, I’ve got a production problem, I’ve got a turnover problem,” whatever it might be, and ask us to help them solve it. But we have to dig in and figure out what are the underlying behaviors that we could train that would address those business outcome problems that they have? This is a mental model. It’s really being able to have this conversation with the business partner to unpack that. Throughout my career, I have been fortunate enough to work with great organizations and I have developed a tool called a measurement map, and a process by building a map in collaboration with business partners to build a picture of that alignment. If this is your business problem, what’s the evidence of that? What would employees have to do differently if they were to resolve that problem for you? How would you measure that? How would you know they were doing that? We back that all the way down and pretty soon we’ve got learning objectives for our training programs. And we also know what to measure, and we have the business partner on board. They have told us what’s important, what good looks like in their terms, what’s on their dashboard. We’re not having to invent this, they’re telling us and we are partnering with them to define what success would look like and how our training could help close the gap.

米歇尔Eggleston Schwartz:

那些是一些好点,邦妮。我真的很喜欢,你在真正需要的情况下提出了很多行业研究。每个人都想衡量训练的影响,但就像,你在哪里开始?我们在培训行业的研究中发现了超过60%的受访者表明188金宝搏链接他们认为他们在这方面需要更多的发展。我们在网站流量和与今年的测量和分析相关的网站流量和与测量和分析相关的内容的网站上看到了它。因此,在过去的一年里,我真的有一个增加,在这个话题。通过该镜头,L&D领导的镜头可以在这个测量之旅上开始吗?你有什么建议?

邦妮贝雷斯福德:

在我与客户的工作中,从非营利组织到《财富》10强,学习型组织都在努力解决这个问题。我意识到,我多年来养成的这个过程,实际上是有效的,其他人也想学习。最初,人们会和我签约,让我和他们一起做这项工作,我的热情更多的是让其他人自己做这项工作。我希望看到每一个学习型组织都能在他们的学习型组织中嵌入测量和分析功能。我想让这些人能够进行这些类型的业务对话,建立一些类似于测量地图的东西,这样他们也可以对齐并获得业务数据,并开始集成。这不是一件容易的事情……如果你没有一个思维模式和一个过程,你就会被困在试图自己创造它的过程中,如果你有正确的工具,就会有很好的方法开始实现它。

米歇尔Eggleston Schwartz:

肯定。从你自己的经验来看,有没有哪种项目比其他项目更容易衡量其影响?

邦妮贝雷斯福德:

是的,它是。当学习者或工作者直接对他们自己的产出和指标负责时,这就容易多了。比如销售人员应该销售,他们有数量,美元或单位或其他容易衡量的东西。客户服务代表通常有关于客户满意度或电话处理时间的非常具体的指标,这些指标直接归因于个人。当你有这么直接的东西时,就容易多了因为你可以观察受过训练的人和没有受过训练的人,观察他们的前表现和后表现。实际上,这是一种自然的测试和对照组你们都准备好了进行观察性研究,这是一种科学的方法。这些更容易衡量。更困难的是领导力的培养。第一级领导人更容易因为这些措施可能更接近他们的工作角色要比在高管级别,因为这些指标往往是在更高的层面,大量而不是单独的输出,所以变得更加困难,但有一种方法。我最喜欢的一本书是道格拉斯·哈伯德的《如何衡量一切》。 He is an economist, he’s not in the learning profession, so he’s coming at this from an econometrics perspective, about how do I measure intangibles in business? Pretty much it’s if there is a will, there’s a way, you can figure out how to measure. So I would encourage your listeners to check out that book because it will give you several aha moments into how to measure those intangibles, and give you a way for thinking about the problem at hand. I want to build on that too, because Douglas Hubbard’s work has been foundational in my own. You were asking earlier about how people can learn this and my passion for sharing the how-to on this, has gone into us building out a measurement academy. I don’t want this to be a promotional spot for GP Strategies’ Measurement Academy, but it came out of the desire of our customers to do this work themselves. In this academy, we’re teaching through hands on and micro learning, and videos, and assignments, and live sessions, how do I go about building these measurement maps? And how do I go about putting together a credible measurement plan that I can show the impact in a credible way? I can causally link my training to the business outcomes. Again, it’s passing on this knowledge because the more people in our profession understand and can do measurement, the more credibility we’re all going to have with our business stakeholders, and we’re going to elevate the entire industry because we’re going to be able to show our value.

莎拉·盖洛:

绝对,感谢邦妮的分享。我喜欢你提到的关于一些程序的内容,它更容易测量数字和收入与某人的情绪智力,所以我认为这是完全的感觉。如果你可以分享自己的经验,我很乐意。当你第一次开始涉及培训测量时,现在你真的赋予社区中的其他人来做这一点,你的旅程是什么样的?您如何克服其中一些真正的最初挑战,即在测量方面,许多学习领导者可能面临着何处?这是一个很大的问题,我有一个非常具体的事件发生在我的职业生涯中,真正把我推向这个方向。我正在为一个主要的汽车公司工作并支持他们的培训组织,这是他们的零售培训组织。他们培训了全国各地的所有经销商和所有经销商销售人员。该组织刚刚推出了一个新的模型,销售额平均,您的学习者可能会欣赏这一点,销售部门来到培训组织,并表示,“您需要提高您的培训,因为销售额下降,”他们都在责备培训部门。 That’s why the salespeople weren’t selling it, it was because they weren’t trained well enough. The learning leader turned to me and he said, “I think that I’m really tired of being the fall guy. I’m tired of taking the blame every time a product doesn’t meet its expectations when it might be the advertising, the marketing, the design, the engineering, the quality of the product. I don’t like it always being training that’s at fault. And I never get credit, by the way, Bonnie, when the product sells well. Nobody ever says, ‘Wow, that training must’ve been great.'” He challenged me with showing the impact of his training. With that, I did not know how to do it and I actually called in some experts that I knew professionally through the International Society for Performance Improvement, and I had them consult with me on how to do this. That’s when we started building out this concept of a causal chain of evidence from training to behavior, to outcomes, to the business goals. We were able to do one of those observational studies, looking at the before and after performance of people who got trained and people who didn’t, and we were able to show credible evidence of the impact that training was having. With that, I was hooked, that yeah, you could do this. This doesn’t just apply to automotive, it doesn’t just apply to sales training, we could do this everywhere. So for me, it was that “aha” moment that yes, it can be done. Yes, there is a process that you can do. Think about kind of like a clinical drug trial. We’re all very much aware these days of clinical drug trials for medicines and how they have test and control groups. The control group they’re controlling for hereditary and diet, and exercise, and sleep patterns, and all that other sort of thing, and so we try to control as much of that as we can in the workspace too, by looking at tenure and job role, and age, and demographics, and region of the country somebody’s in. So we control for those things and we apply the same methodology that’s being used in the sciences, we apply that now to the human sciences of human capital to do this same kind of analysis so we can show that cause and effect relationship. One thing that I always get challenged with is you can’t prove it, there’s other stuff going on. There’s a pandemic, there’s a recession, there’s a product shortage, there’s a chip shortage, all of this going on. So part of showing that causality is three things you really need to make that causal argument for the effect of your training. First, the cause must precede the effect, so your training has to happen before you see the increase in sales. Okay, that’s easy. Second, there must be a correlation between the cause and the effect, so let’s say as I train people on safety, it’s correlated with a reduction in injuries. Okay, that’s a correlation. Those two are pretty easy hurdles to clear when you’re making a causal argument, the third one is trickier and that is rule out everything else. Rule out all those plausible alternative causes, and to do that, you need two things. You need a logic model that says if this, then this, and if this, then this, and if this, then this. That’s where that measurement map comes in, it’s actually a causal model. It’s a logic model. So you need to have a logic to make a causal argument, and the second thing is you need a good research design. That’s going back to our measurement academy and what I’m teaching there, is not only the measurement mapping, but it’s also how to design a credible measurement plan, which is your research design. Which all goes into the making that credible argument for your training. Because again, we’re looking at business data and we’ve got skeptics and we want to be sure that they understand what success looks like. They’ve told us what their metrics are. They’ve told us all these other influencing things so we can account for them in our analysis. They’ve given us all the, “Yeah, but…” So we have that conversation with the business partner, figure out what success looks like in measurable terms, figure out all the other things that could be going on that could affect sales or safety besides our training, so that we can design a credible analysis, then we’re ready to measure. So it’s really having a mental model about how to tackle business impact and then having a process that you can apply again and again, to different initiatives, different programs.

米歇尔Eggleston Schwartz:

我喜欢这个过程。我认为你很好地重申了,是的,有一个过程,学习领导者可以遵循。是的,这是可以做到的。我很想知道,学习型领导者为了有效地做到这一点,需要具备哪些具体的技能?你对具体的技能有什么建议吗?

邦妮贝雷斯福德:

这就回到了我们的第一个问题关于问问题,从一个问题开始。我想说,领导者的首要技能是好奇心,并且能够以问题的形式表达这种好奇心。我想知道我的训练是否奏效。好吧,我想知道我所接受的培训是否有助于提高销售。我想知道我的培训是否在提高客户满意度。我想知道我的训练是否在减少工伤或滑倒伤害。我想知道不同地方的人,或者不同工作角色的人是否会有不同的感受。这就是好奇心,因为当你开始问这些问题时,你就能让你的团队和你一起思考,“天哪,我们该如何回答这个问题?”这是一个。第二个是学习型领导者,基本的分析能力,你的团队中应该有其他人。 If you’re the learning leader, you’re going to have a data analyst or somebody who is really conversant with the tools that you have and number crunching, and merging data, and that sort of thing, but you should be comfortable enough with data. I guess I would coin that as data literacy. Then the third is storytelling. Now that you’ve found your answer, how are you going to describe what you found? I’ll share with you, early in my career when I was doing this, I would do these studies and I would come up with a 30- or 40-page report that was just, I thought it was magnificent. The number one critique I got was, “Where’s the executive summary? Can you put this in three PowerPoint slides?” I was so excited by my research, I wanted to share it with everybody, but not everybody cares. They want to know what did you find? What does it mean? What should I do next? So the curiosity tells you what questions you want to go answer. The data literacy gives you comfort interpreting what your data analyst is bringing to you. And then the storytelling is how are you going to share this back to the business in a story that resonates with the business? And it’s more about what you did for the business, not what you did within the training, if you know what I mean. Because again, our stakeholders are our business partners, how did we help them achieve their goals?

米歇尔Eggleston Schwartz:

肯定。我认为这是一个关于一些关键技能的很好的路线图,比如技术技能和软技能之间的平衡。好奇心是一种引导,通过问那些重要的问题来获得正确的数据和正确的答案,我认为这对学习领导者来说非常重要。还有一点我想说,那就是为什么对学习型领导者来说衡量培训的影响是很重要的。邦妮,你能分享一下如果学习领导者不衡量培训的影响会有什么风险吗?

邦妮贝雷斯福德:

就在今天早上,我和一个组织谈论这个问题,他们告诉我他们现在的风险是被外包。如果他们不能展示自己的价值,他们的整个学习型组织就会面临被外包的威胁。这有点极端,但我们都在一个资源稀缺的世界,时间,金钱,人和人,这些人不仅仅是学习型组织中的人,他们也是耗费我们培训的学生,他们的时间是宝贵的。所以我们需要确保我们的培训是针对目标的,它与业务需要达到的业务结果相一致,因为这样我们就不会浪费他们的时间。如果我们所做的培训项目并没有改变业务的方向,那就是在浪费每个人的时间。组织,他们在他们所做的一切中寻找价值,这包括他们的学习型组织。所以如果我们想成为相关的,如果我们想被认为是解决方案的一部分,而不仅仅是一笔费用,我们就需要展示它的价值。我们需要表明我们是如何团结一致的。通过这个协调的过程,让他们表达他们的成功,我有客户告诉我,他们有了更好的对话,他们与商业伙伴的关系有了很大的改善,因为企业现在意识到,哦,那些L&D的人,他们在试图帮助我。他们关心的是我仪表盘上的东西。 That’s what we’re working toward. It has shifted that relationship from the L&D people being those order takers to now thinking alongside the business with what does success look like? How would you measure it? What behaviors do people need to do to drive that success? It’s really tightened that connection between the learning organization and the business. That’s all part of showing the value of the learning department to the organization at large. You really need to have a process for engaging with the business and have the internal expertise on your team to do that. The risk at the far end of the spectrum could be to be outsourced.

米歇尔Eggleston Schwartz:

这是一个很大的风险。毫无疑问,要真正将价值传递给高级领导,流程和专业知识都是必要的。这是他们需要看到的,让L&D在组织中保持相关性。正如您所说的,这对于摆脱订单接受者的状态并真正交付基本的业务价值至关重要。

邦妮贝雷斯福德:

对,其中一些将显示影响,其中一些只是与您的业务合作伙伴进行了那些讨论,因为他们可能已经告诉您他们想要提高生产力。你甚至知道他们的意思吗?什么是生产力?你的生产力是什么意思?你如何测量生产力?你的工作角色是什么作用作用?如果他们从未阐述了他们的生产力所吝啬的意思,而且他们持有你对提高生产力的责任,学习部门在一个非常肮脏的状态下,因为他们不知道甚至是什么生产力。如果您与业务伙伴交谈,例如,“良好的生产力看起来像是做一个,B和C,”现在你知道你需要在A,B和C上训练,这更清晰。我有一个餐厅的一个例子,让我们说你是一个餐馆老板,你想要提高餐厅的盈利能力,你知道你需要训练你的家庭工作人员,你的等待人员。If the owner of the restaurant said to the learning department, “Help me improve productivity,” I’m not sure that the learning department would exactly know where to start, but if the learning consultant asked the restaurateur, “Well, how would you expect our weight staff to improve profitability?” And if he said, “Well, I would like them to upsell people. We need to get the average check per table. We need to increase the amount of the average check.” “Ah okay, and how would you do that? What would you expect them to do?” And he comes back and says, “Well, we have a very fine wine list and a lovely dessert menu. If we could train our wait people to upsell on desserts and to pair wines with the dinner, and so we would see a bottle of wine and a couple desserts on every ticket, that would increase profitability. Now as the training department, you know what to train on. Now the business partner knows, and so when the restaurateur sees people showing the wine menu, showing the dessert menu, it’s like, oh okay, that training is working. It’s connecting the dots all the way back, so we know what productivity looks like, define it in measurable observable terms, down to the performer. That’s the process and that enhances the relationship with the business partner, because it forces them to articulate things they may not have articulated themselves.

莎拉·盖洛:

肯定的。回到另一件事上,你提到了邦妮关于真正讲故事和(向股东)讲故事的重要性。就像你说的,他们想要执行总结,拥有讲故事的能力和人际交往的能力如何帮助培训经理们真正地分解复杂的数据以一种明确地向管理层和决策者证明他们的价值的方式?

邦妮贝雷斯福德:

讲故事是很丰富的,其中一些是你选择如何可视化你的数据,表格,图表,图表。通常在执行演示中,你想要一些具有高影响力的图表,这些图表会随着大数据的变化而流行,你的叙述应该尊重培训的成果。我们开始这样做,训练就是为了这个训练之前,我们在这里训练之后我们在这里。看看这些改进,并量化它们的改进,不是用公式,而是用图形的方式。不管是销量增长了10%的大数字,还是屏幕上多了10辆车的图片,如果是汽车销量,就能体现这一点。另一个值得附上的东西是任何你可能拥有的定性数据,无论是学生的评价还是对第一级调查的评价,你的满意度调查。当你可以将任何轶事添加到数据中,使其更加个性化,这只会使故事更加令人难忘。在讲故事时,知道关键信息是什么很重要。你想让他们带走什么?弄清楚这是什么,并确保这一信息是首要的和中心的,它是明确的。 You can have an appendix a mile long that has all the other things about the study population and how many people were in it and all that sort of thing, but keep it concise, know what your story is, and then figure out visually how to best tell it. And throw in some anecdotes for the color commentary.

米歇尔Eggleston Schwartz:

当然,为数据增添了生命力,我喜欢这样。毫无疑问,这对于有效地向企业传递信息至关重要。在我们结束今天的节目之前,邦妮,你分享了这么多,对于那些正在努力衡量培训效果的听众们,你有什么最后的建议吗?有什么最后的最佳实践或建议吗?

邦妮贝雷斯福德:

确定。我们今天讲了很多内容我还讲了观察性研究等等。我鼓励大家从小事做起,从小事做起,深入研究数据,开始问一些基本的问题,看看你能发现什么。开始将你的数据按人口统计、地区、职位划分,看看你是否从中学到不同的东西。所以从小事开始,学习如何构建测量地图,学习如何与友好的商业伙伴进行校准。了解对他们来说什么是重要的,他们的kpi是什么?获取他们的一些数据,并将其与你的学习数据合并。试着将业务数据和学习数据合并在一起,看看你会发现什么。在那里进行一些数据探索,提出问题,但看看您发现了什么。所以从小事做起,记住,即使你什么都没发现,你也学到了一些东西,因为如果一个程序不能工作,你难道不想知道吗?

莎拉·盖洛:

爱。这结尾真棒,邦妮。我想问最后的问题,也许我们会喜欢答案,也许我们不喜欢,但至少我们有这些信息,这才是问题的关键。非常感谢您今天参加我们的“学习的商业”节目。在今天的节目结束后,我们的听众如果想联系你,他们该如何联系你呢?

邦妮贝雷斯福德:

好吧,我在LinkedIn担任Bonnie Beresford,也通过GPStrateGies.com。而作为我的决赛,我想留下我的个人口头禅,这是为了证明,衡量改善的措施。因为真正证明是一件事,但改善真的是我们都在这一切。毕竟,我们都在人类绩效改善业务中。

米歇尔Eggleston Schwartz:

太好了。邦妮,很高兴今天和你谈论这个非常重要和复杂的话题,所以非常感谢你。我想我们的观众和听众一定会发现这些信息很有价值。

邦妮贝雷斯福德:

这是我的荣幸。

米歇尔Eggleston Schwartz:

想了解更多关于培训测量的见解,并了解更多关于培训行业测量证书的信息,它可以帮助你发展我们今天讨论的许多技能,请登录trainingi188金宝搏链接ndustry.com/trainingindustrypodcast查看本集的演示笔记。

莎拉·盖洛:

和往常一样,不要忘记在你最喜欢的播客应用程序上给我们打分和评论。我们喜欢收到你的来信。我们下次见。

演讲者1:

如果你对本期节目有反馈,或者想为未来的节目提出一个话题,请发邮件至info@www.howmanys.com或使用www.howmanys.com的联系我们页面。感谢收听培训行业播客。188金宝搏链接

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